P.S.

The Spiritual Forum  appears to have very little bandwidth. The owner of it was a man aged 30 or so who passed away. His mother runs it now or his gf.

It often says:  "the server is too busy".  You have to access it late at night or early a.m. for the  best results. I would classify it as New Age.

Dcn Jae

You always speak so unkindly about the United Church.

Can you think of one good thing you might say?

Yes. I've posted before about the warm welcome and community life which my family and I enjoyed at Elk Point United Church in Alberta. I've also posted about a Minister of Music who I thought was wonderful -the late Rev. Barry Gosse of Islington United. During my time here at Wondercafe I've also noticed that the UCCanada is swifter to respond to help with global emergency situations than we Baptists denominationally tend to be. I'll finish for now by saying that my mom's United Church in rural NB always puts on a nice lunch after Sunday service.

<- "rolls eyes"

Dcn. Jae

Would you consider any of the UC folk on the WC to be nice or wonderful? You haven't said so. Your mother's church puts on a nice lunch? Food is better than the  people....?

That's exactly why letters to the editor might work better to stirr something than letters to the UCC. If they feel WC is worth a story, they start investigating.

If a Christian puts another to ru'agh use is this godly or ungodly abuse?

Does banter fall into ru'agh use or pure dark side of the emotions (gods) as gods are too dumb to see Le Vite ... sort of Sloe Jinns ...

What would wee common folk learn if it weren't for what's between the lines of Judao-Christian Law; "the common folk are bound for hell for the rich and powerful are possessed by this emotion" ... needless to say without a clue about the second ... (beta) half of the Golden Rule! A true one liner; monolithic---AC Clark on Kant ... Clack Kent? Superman under  process of disrobing in a telephone booth? That's wired/w'eire'd!

Dcn. Jae ~  The Observer is about Faith, Justice and Ethical living.  I am sorry that your family does not care about these things.

A lot of things are expressed in the OBSERVER that are either one side or the other of the Golden Law ... no such thing as being compassionate about a duality ... you and the other ... I've always felt like an outsider with all but a 10% group in churches ... the rest false visionaries of how things should not be in shared control? That young Trudeau chap has put his foot into what he thinks of democracy ...

It is a dark consideration ... like Shadow of conception ... if a place where knowledge and thought as well as Classic Wisdom is shunned by blind faith ...

Kinda makes a fringe person a bit cynical about being on the inside group ... thus Chrsitians drift of in the meditation: "This isn't proper" perhaps only right in a narrow perspective ... right Happy John?

Thus emotional creatures fade into distant thought ... and wisdom obviously must be out of 'ere ! Covers that internal gnawing sensation to wonder ...

Realistically - it is probably a little over the top to say that "Canadians admire [the Observer] whether they're in the pews or on the sidelines."

Some Canadians admire it. Almost certainly a minority. Based on church subscription lists I've seen over the years, only a minority of people in the pews truly "admire" it - at least enough to pay for it.

I'm not criticizing the Observer. Just pointing out that it's a "niche" sort of magazine for a "niche" sort of market, and within that "niche" market it's generally pretty well respected and admired, as evidence by various awards it's won. But to say that Canadians both in the pews and on the sidelines admire it is hyperbole.

Thank you Rev. Steven, that's what I was saying.

Sad that not even my positive comments are good enough for you. If you'd like to make a new thread I'd be happy to talk about favorite posters and church people on it.

yup, and it is these sidebars, old crap that make wondercafe tired/old.

Can we please get the discussion of Jae's views on the UCCan out of here? They are well-known and need not be discussed further, least of all in a thread that is about something more important to many of us.

Mendalla

PS. Sorry for sounding like I am trying to moderate. Not my intention. However, the only thing more irritating than Jae's dismissive attitude is the constant need of some people to react to it and that, more than Jae himself, is what derails threads.

Just to clarify - my comment wasn't in response to Jae. It was a response to Observer editor David Wilson, as quoted by Pinga.

So I have a few questions for those who have technological knowledge.

How much would it cost to create a new virtual Cafe out of the box?

How much would it cost to create a new virtual Cafe, customized to import the archival stuff from the existing Cafe, assuming that UCCan would release it?

And could someone please address the FMV soft costs of operating such a site?

Understanding the costs shapes how a new Cafe might emerge.

double post - sorry

What I'm scratching my head over is this - which part of the Wondercafe User Agreement, if any, would allow for the moving of archived threads from this website to another? I know of none. I thought Wondercafe posts were only for the purposes of Wondercafe.

Therein an indication of someone wishing to stiffle a fresh thought ...

The part where it says that the content is WC's to use as they wish. See sections 1 and 6. Anything you post here is their's. They won't sell your personal info, so a user list with email addresses will not be transferrable. That's how I read it.

http://www.wondercafe.ca/user-agreement

Hi Redhead ( or whoever)

Just for your info. I don't believe you really need to include the archives in a new forum although it would come in handy. I'm providing a sample of a free basic forum with no frills or many extras  so to speak. (She may have a back up disc, I don't know.)   The owner always has a free forum running since about 2006. I've never joined altho' she has had a number of members  that I know from another large  forum that closed .

I believe she is presently  babysitting her first grandchild with another baby grandchild  coming so she has no time for her forum. In the past I know  these simple forums can accommodate quite a few members. There does  appear  to be a problem with   management, security,   ads etc. so that this lady closes and opens new forums constantly.

I'm not recommending  operating  a  free forum like this, there's  too many hassles if you have a large volume of clients or users.  I just wish to show that a forum can be quite basic while still meeting a variety of user's needs. It doesn't need to be state of the art like the WC with a number of special features.

To be honest I doubt very much that a new forum not sponsored by the UC would be of interest to a large volume of people for a long period of time. I could be wrong. The UC is responsible for the tremendous success of the WC.  There is no other like it.  I read that if the UC did offer a new website with paid subscriptions from its clientele it can be difficult to collect the monies and rely on the users to pay up. It sounds like a no-win situation.

I don't mind not having the archived stuff from WC.  It would just mean starting from scratch and breathing life into a new Cafe.  Better still if it is possible to find a cheaper program to use and maintain, perhaps UCC. will continue to keep Wonder Cafe alive because the cafe would be more viable money wise to run.

Cost is a very important consideration for our current state of WC, prompting the decision to close down.  perhaps if we all continue to work together like we are now and check out either free, or paid programs, that are cheap to maintain and run, the UCC might decide to breathe new life into WC and keep it open but, just as is done in real life.  Close the Cafe for renovations and remodeling and open it up as still Wonder Cafe but with a new fresh look.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

I'm open to either starting from scratch or from the existing base.

The problem with giving a cost, Redhead, is that you first have to work out a number of options and cost them out.

If you use a prebuilt forum hosting site, then you will likely pay less than if you build a system and have someone host that system

If you build a system, it depends on whether you host it on a server or a cloud, what kind of Internet connection you want the host to provide, and what software you use. A system built using an open source forum software on an open source database is going to cost you less than licensing something commercial that runs on a commercial database.

We're not really far enough along yet to be able to put good costs on it (unless someone has put some time into it).

Mendalla

Looks good at first blush but need to review the details, which is where, as always, The Devil may lie. Esp. around security and privacy.

Mendalla

yup.  I am not sure if people understand how important security is.  Malware on servers can get to your machines to dang easy and snapshot your passwords....then send them back to the control site.  You are wide open to hacks.

Thanks for sharing that information Pinga . . . sounds like security would rank high up on the list of "must haves".

Mendalla

You   and Pinga know lots about websites. I know next to nothing. I was moderator of a small political forum once that closed,  just  a handful of people on it. Its awhile ago and I can't recall 100% but there would be a lot of new  people, perhaps 50 or more descending on  small  forums  in one night? Somebody said it was google search engine.......?....I forget. I know some small  forums closed down  being over run with ads.

Security is a major concern. I think there are really no "freebies" on the net, nothing for nothing. Here's another low cost or free website from the Peace Pipe gal I posted above. She has very few members posting so its a different ball game than a huge place like the WC.

Quote from the Peace Pipe forum  owner:

I looked long and hard for a way to get the Peace Pipe back online after the man who acted as my host for 8 years suddenly shut down his whole operation. I stumbled upon a free web host and that is what I am using now. I have really found it to be quite easy to use and quite reliable. There are no advertisements of any kind showing up on the site.

Also they do offer paid hosting services at a very low price.  

To top it all off, they pay people like me, $5 every time someone uses my link here to sign up for free hosting. The only catch is I have to earn $100 before I get paid. But that's ok. I am not doing this for the money. I am sharing this information because it's a good product and it's free!!!

http://www.000webhost.com/621060.html

Technical solution:

I am willing to try to mock up something in Invision Power Board, if I have someone else looking at the technical items with me (Mendella / Chansen?) and if we have someone pondering the cost element.  I would do it short-term just to allow folks to see what it is like, how it works, that kind of stuff.. It woudln't be fancy -- but most of these are enhancable/skins, but the more changes you make the harder it is to upgrade.

Revenue / cost

Nothing is free, if it is free, then they are making revenue somehow.  Trust me on that one.

Invision PowerBoard cost is based on the avg  # of participants on line at one time over x hours (for IPS it is 48hrs), so for a board like us, there would be some days with high volume (think boxing day) and many times with low.    40 users on line is $30/month.

In a virtual community a challenge is not so much the revenue stream, as it is who is paying the bill.   I would think we could raise with pledges enough to cover 3 years, but the question would be the source / payment. ie, would any other church org be willing to consider us a mission group to their church, with a fund/payment.

Moderation

My sense is there are those who have offered to be moderators.  I also have a sense that the admins who have been admins also have a heart in the wondercafe group / community.  

Admin

My sense is there are a few folks (Chansen, Mendella, myself) maybe LBMuskoka, who woud be willing to work through admin/technical and likely could lean on the wisdom of existing admins.

Risk

The risk/liability etc may require legal guidance...think we may have some wisdom available.

Transition , old data

Not sure about that one.

So, are people interested in trying? what are your thougths? 

haha, real simple playing: http://a56565.demo.invisionpower.com/topic/2-last-post/

First blush, it looks good. Fairly clean, simple interface, at least. It but it has threading, separate forums, and rich text editing. It has signatures and blogs, both good. One thing to look is how much customization is possible (changing the default background, adding logos and maybe our own "look" to it). Otherwise it can be a bit too generic.

I saw the documentation somewhere. I'll find it again and peruse some of it to learn more about the nuts and bolts.

Mendalla

Looks like skins are available, Mendella.  I'm not a web person so won't even pretend to know.

I would also want tosee if wondercafe would consider putting it connected to the primary wondercafe site, ie, would like to know if still could be affiliated, if not, funded.

Pinga...... Good on you .....!!!!........also .....Mendalla..... Chansen ......LB Muskoka ...et al...YES...YES...I'm so excited to read that you are willing to give it a try. Amazing...!!!!....Go for it....!!!!

I was laughing at myself posting  these cheap or free potential  websites totally forgetting that the original price tag on the WC website including  Emerging Spirit was 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 million over 3 years. Of course a lot of that funding was for advertising.

It has photo albums for those who wish to use to share with friends  It has admin & moderation capability

You can see new posts, and you can follow threads.

Cool!  You mention LAST post thread :) :) :)

You're right, thank you chansen.

I got on it. I registered. Now I can't figure out how to chat,

CH...lol....I guess it didn't like me. I can't get a foot in the door....I don't know what's wrong!  Oh well....no hurry....

Stardust, you did the same as CrazyHeart.  You need to sign in.  So far you are only a guest. 

The site would have sent you an email after registering. yOu need to click on it to confirm the email.  Then, when you go to the site, you need to signon.

I got an email at yahoo.  It says my password or user name is not valid or incorrect.  Then I clicked a given link with an id number also  but that didn't work either. I'll try again on the site as you instructed Pinga. Its odd that my name stardust  shows up on your site if its not valid.

i realized that you showed up as guest, it must be how you posted.

You have an account, Stardust, that is valid and able to be logged on.

I am guessing you have not entered your password correctly as others have been successful.

You must sign in to enter posts in social.

Just registered and made a post to check it out. The site seems quite usable. Different than here, but very usable. Thanks for setting it up and showing us one option, Pinga.

No problem.  

It is a technical solution, showing what is out there and for what price.

There are a lot of questions, but, we can work through a solution if we put our collective energy towards it, and if there is a desire to do it.

I think of it like a church community, you can sit and bitch about the roof having a leak, or you can figure out how to make it happen.

Sometimes, you just have to make it happen while people bitch about the leaking,

I succeeded.....:)..where is Crazyheart?

So, Aaron, in your role as admin, do you think that there would be a way to affiliate such a site as the one we spun up, to this wondercafe, if...we could figure out the funding model, and the support model.

I am going to presume for this question that 

a) funding would be able to be managed through some form of a "congregational" role and through potential funding support.

b) administrative support would be based on a congregational model with folks having some responsibility from the membership howeer oversight coming from the church.

Having saiid both of those, they are just options, but they are likely good enough to support a question regarding funding and administrative costs (payment of license)

Note: they could continue to support United Church blogs, events, etc and I would think could be used to support conference  or presbytery forums if folks desired such.

Thanks Pinga for showing us this option. I have played around on it a little and while not as easy as w/c it is certianly possible. I've even changed both my avatar and my name once.

I think this involves the whole question, of how or if we remain affiliated to the UCC. I think it would be a good idea for serval reason,least iof all is funding.  I like the software you are playing with and it works for me. I especoially like anything that is basic and low cost.

I think that one of the reasons wondercafe is being cut, is becasue it was part of a larger project to promote the UCC, which ended years ago. Thus I understand WC was being run out of the communication department????  SO if WC is too continue to be affiliated with the church, it should be treated as an online community, and thus should look at a different kind of affilaition. Either at GCO or another court???  If at GCO perhaps in another office? or different staff (ie something to do with accessibility/disability???? missions? global out reach?? ) 

More than funding I see the UCC ability to provide basic admin functions, like removing spam and trolls like Stephen Booth etc. A large part of the success of WC can be attributed to having a UCC doing the admin.  

Thus the software we choose should be easy enough for a non techie to support,?? Which would allow a greater number of staff to do the job. Or a rotating number of volunteers??   

I also like being affilated with the UCC to maintain the basic feel of UCC theology, but open and incluisive of other people  faiths, and non faiths, similar in ethics to UCC (i know this is hard to discribe, but something around what WC is now) 

We should also explore different ideas or ways to reach out to new people.  Most membrs here joined during the major ad and media caimpaigns. The strength and value for me is that so many have actually stuck around for 6 years. Howevr we will need to explore new ways to promote. This is another way we can partner with the UCC GCO. 

Also if it engenders community if the community is self supporting, and it is even better if that community can support other communities. Thus we could also look at suporting the UCC, like Mission and Service, Social JUstice projects etc?????

I disagree with it being easy enough for a non-tech to support.  Sorry, if you want an online forum of any calibre at all, you have to understand the technical aspects.  period.

As a note, the cost of switching that Aaron/Admin shared is valid.  Wondercafe just happens to be getting those resources for free, and to be honest, my people who are not experts in the forum area.  We are techs and will get there, but, please do not think that "anyone" can do this stuff.  Mendella and I are volunteering our hours to get us to be able to test.  SG has been volunteering her hours to test the moderation function.

The software does identify spammers and trolls. of course, ti would be helpful to know StephenBooths details and have them added t the block zones.

This is a very good point. WC was part of a larger campaign to promote the UCCan. That all ended. And we wonder why people don't come to our churches. I was talking to two younger colleagues about churches in town, and in particular about one near our workplace. One said it is far more liberal than other churches such as Anglican, United, etc. I tried to let her know we are quite liberal but she wouldn't hear it. I suspect in her world, we are boring and for older people. I'm not sure she's wrong, especially when compared to the church we were discussing.

I have been part of the Comprehensive Review discussions and have listened to several congregations. There are themes emerging. One is that maybe we need to do some sort of evangelism, and that we are scared of this. We don't know who we are in order to share with others. Perhaps we do have to be treated as an online community. Perhaps the other groups that are really cool like the 30-somethings in Edmonton who float ought to be considered a congregation in themselves instead of having to join an existing bricks and mortar congregation. Of course that would mean making significant changes to the polity of the UCCan. But isn't that what the Comp Review is supposed to achieve? Isn't this the time for that to happen?

I think you misunderstood, or I mistated. For one I am being prosciptive, rather than descriptive.

what I am saying is that the software should be easy enogh to use, so that a non tech can provide certain admin functions, like blocking trolls, or adding them or their email to the list.of blocked users.

. That way you can get a larger number of people with he ability to provide such admin problem.  So that training is not as much of an issue. This would include not only simplicity in operation , but good support for the admin from thr software publisher. 

That sounds more like mod work than admin Alex.  I'm willing to do that kinda stuff, but learning more of the tech issues would be too much time for me because I would have to put in the time to learn more.