I'm not tech savvy when it comes to computer software. So please enlighten me those that are.

 

If Wonder Cafe is currently using version 6 of this Drupal.  How different is the Version 7 to the 6.  Isn't there any way to upgrade from version 6 to version 7 like you do for other programs?  Again like I said I'm not tech savvy so I honestly don't know how hard it would be.  I have read people saying Wonder Cafe is Heavily Customized. Thus making it impossible to upgrade to version 7.

 

Is there no way funds could be donated by people?  I mean if I read right it's every few years up keep would be needed.  That's a doable goal from my perspective. People donate what they can to help cover the cost of the upgrades and UCC covers the remainder that is not covered by donations. Wasn't Wonder Cafe started by donations?

 

Couldn't it be put out as perhaps a special donation through the UCC churches to get help continuing something as much needed as Wonder Cafe?  I recall churches having special donations for this or that over the years.  Perhaps this can be a special project put before the congregations.

 

These thoughts are suggestions on how to keep Wonder Cafe Alive off the top of my head.

 

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

 

Steven A. Breeze

Hi crazyheart,

 

 

That is a fair expense and I'm not going to argue that one particular ministry should take priority over the other simply because that is the decision that was made about WonderCafe.ca and it sucks.

 

It sucks to be shafted.

 

It would suck worse to be the one doing the shafting.

 

My complaint is that a decision was made for a ministry with no thought or concern given to those utilizing the ministry.

 

All of us here were stakeholders here and none of us, as far as I am aware, was consulted or considered when the decision was finally made.

 

I recognize that the decision was made in an attempt to be more stewardly with the dwindling resources available. 

 

I also recognize that this decision represents the very worst decision making style that various courts of the Church routinely complain about.  It was a talking head decision.

 

 

As individual users the wider Church doesn't know us and never expressed much interest in getting to know us.  Which is why we are now considered "fat" to cut.  WonderCafe.ca will, no doubt, continue to be one of those famous firsts that the denomination likes to pat itself on the back about.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

 

 

 

Yes, you can upgrade. In fact, I believe there is no cost for Drupal itself (open source). The problem, as stated, is that Wondercafe is not "out of the box".  They have customized it. There will be costs in person-hours to update those customizations to work properly in the new version.

 

I am going through the same process with a system I manage. The upgrade itself costs nothing because beyond my time to run the upgrade. We pay annual maintenance fees that include the ability to upgrade to the latest version at any time. However, updating our custom add-ons is, by the time we are done, going to run into the tens of thousands of dollars, all of it for person-hours to re-develop the custom pieces (we pay $100+ per hour for this support). In addition, of course, to the time I spend managing the project, testing the updated custom, and fixing bits of the custom that I did myself.

 

So an upgrade is far from impossible, it is a matter of allocating resources. The question is where those resources will come from if the UCCan cannot allocate them.

 

Mendalla

 

Mendalla....

 

Thank you for explaining it like that, I understand the reasoning better, I just wish there was some way to keep it online.  It is a resource that has helped many people along their journey of self discovery.  It has helped people come to Christ or to a church.  It has helped people who view their journey like myself as not being defined by religion and yet believe in a higher power whatever shape or form that takes for each individuals enlightenment.

 

I just thought that if Wonder Cafe was formed and given birth via donations, why can it not continue via the same method if given the chance.  I suggested what I thought are valid possible solutions to this problem.  Like many here, I think it would have been nice if the users of Wonder Cafe had been included in some form or another in the decision to closed the Wonder Doors.

 

Again Aaron is just the Messenger and we shouldn't shoot him.  He is taking the flack because he's...I guess the term might be... target.  I don't envy his position, it is a very hard position to be in.  I just wish the Death Knell wasn't sounded without giving the Wonder Cafe Congregation, and make no mistake this is a congregation of wondrous diversity...  a chance to do something, even if it failed.  We were never given a chance and the decision was made unilaterally above and beyond us.

 

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

 

Steven A. Breeze

This is what I hear from folks all the time, unilateral decisions made from above without input or feeling heard. They feel they are the peons who do not warrant knowledge of what goes on in board rooms or offices. They simply are informed when those in the offices choose to tell them. The criticism I hear most often about church is that it is big business. The church says it is not a business and is about relationships and community and "something more". Yet, it has taken on the business model more and more. This is IMO one more example. I hear, "what we have here is great, you all are great but, it can be done cheaper or more efficiently elsewhere". It is a pink slip. We simply are not being replaced with posters from another country who will be cheaper. At least, I don't think we are.... 

Hard to believe it has been going for 8 years, though! That should be celebrated, even though it is indeed sad.  And we didn't think it would go for more than a year or two.  So I think this has been a success in many ways.  It kickstarted my new direction (ended up going to Seminary!) and helped me meet lots of new friends. Who knows, maybe after the Good Friday death there will be a Wondercafe Easter!

MonAsksIt, I wonder how many new ministers were born here... LOL

Wondercafe got me through the dark days when my daughter was struggling with cancer.  Wondercafe has been there for me as I face the reality of Parkinsons. How will I manage without it?

I've come here and poured out my heart - shared my worries - shared things that I don't share with others - and found love and acceptance - a cup of coffee, an afghan pulled over me as I cuddle by the fire (and a real life prayer shawl mailed to me by someone who felt I needed it).

/
Through Wondercafe I have met members of the LGBT community, and was better prepared to relate to them when I met them in my new church I had transferred to at about the time I joined Wondercafe.
/
Through Wondercafe I met parents struggling with the reality of profoundly handicapped children - and a parent who expressed what it was like to have given up her first-born to adoption many years ago.

/
Through Wondercafe I found ideals and inspiration for some of the sermons I preached as a LLWL.

/
Through Wondercafe I met people who were atheists and who challenged me to develop my faith; and people whose ideas of being a Christian are very different from mine.

/
Through Wondercafe I connected with people from all across Canada - a few in the US - and one on the opposite side of the world. And I've had the pleasure of meeting a few of them. I call them friends.

/
Through Wondercafe I've asked questions, and I've shared ideas. Perhaps I've also helped some others.

/
It's been an important part of my life.

/
I'm on facebook now. I love playing Scrabble with some of you. And seeing pictures and learning something of what is going on in your lives. But I can't imagine it being the same special place that Wondercafe has become for me.

/
A few months and it will be gone.

Is the FB group completely open, or do members have to be accepted?

I think it is completely open, chemgal, but I can't imagine it will be open in the same way that Wondercafe has been. Again, sorry to be cynical, but I can see the FB group becoming a clique of old wondercafe folks. 

I thought the UCCan wanted to change how it operates and how it does ministry. Now I hear this form of ministry is going to be shut down. Others have expressed views similar to mine. I've made many friends in WC who I've either met face to face or have become virtual friends on FB or WC. As Steven said, I'm always amazed at the WC friends on my FB list. This weekend I believe I connected with Monasksit. I also spent time with GordW and JimKinney in person.

I've been a facilitator for the Comprehensive Review. Just about every congregation I've met has commented about how we need to use technology better. They mention WC among other things. It seems to me, that if the church really wanted to rethink how it does ministry, it would try to figure out how to improve WC and use it better instead of shutting it down. To borrow from a metaphor from a presentation on Natural Church Development I saw this weekend, we are watering the plant instead of repotting it "because that's how it worked
before". That's sad.

I hope the powers that be rethink this decision. Consider volunteer moderators. Explore things like open source technology. I know we have a lot of good brains around here. I hope they get used.

How else will I know how well Carter is doing or continue to get to know people like Kimmio.....?

(I thought I had added paragraph breaks....)

What a bummer - tossed aside by a church again. All my life churches have messed with me - promising deepening relationships and backing away when I attempt to find that in the congregation.   .

 

  This doesn't feel like a vague  'virtual' hit, one of those comments on FB or somwhere that is less than kind,  Its more like having the local Food Bank slamming the door in my face because I want to use the service and am not volunteering to fill shelves because I was told that wasn't a job for 'someone like me.' 

Soo I feel hurt, rejected, insulted that I was excluded from the search for ways to continue the conversations,  and not at all surprised.

  All the denominations I know of have layers of power that leads to people making decisions that hurt .the people without that power

 

Yeah, it is a bummer.

 

Does anyone know any other site that is basically 'safe', doesn't demand the use of a real name, and includes a wide range of people journeying along?  A site that includes people exploring their spiritual side, people who think they know what God wants from everyone, people sharing joys, sorrows, recipes, household hints, parenting concerns, health worries, excitement and heartbreak?  A  place that shares information I can then offer to local UC members, who aren't hearing this info at church? Please share if you do because Wondercafe is the best discussion forum based around spirituality I've found since getting a computer that accessed the Internet many years ago!

I get the anguish, i do not get the shock

I get the anguish, i do not get the shock

Seeler, your post made me cry. That the church thinks about dollars and cents more than what you just said or what chansen might say about what this place meant in his darkest hours or what specialmom might say during the court case or busymom when her dad died... it makes me sad and it makes me angry. We are more community than MOST congregations I know where people say they are and then aren't there when others need them to be.

Pinga, sadly not much shocks me anymore.

I tried the FB group, it's by acceptance only.

 

Yeah, but the mods are pretty easy-going. They let me in .

 

Mendalla

 

Aaron, fifteen years ago, the United Church made exactly the same decision (to pull the plug) for the identical reasons (money and a custom system that could not be supported any more) when they chose to walk away from Ecunet. I sat in your chair, back then, both as a sysop (system administrator) and as a member of the Ecunet Board. We had a great run, starting in 1986. Eventually Ecunet ended up on Google Groups. We never learn. In the 1980's we were an original partner in Vision TV. We walked away for financuial reasons. Now Moses Znaimer owns Vision TV for his Zoomer brand. We never learn. And the story will repeat itself.

They will accept you chemgal

When the UCCAN launched Wondercafe in 2006 there was talk, among some, that it would fill the pews, bring back the generation that had walked away; it was even touted as being edgey.  Well, the pews are just as empty and online forums to discuss social/faith issues are not uncommon.  What happened was a fellowship group was formed, which I would describe as a small group ministry.

The UCCAN uses beautiful language like councils, sharing circles, grassroots.  Yet, this decision reeks of the church as business model of the 1960's and 70's.  General Council Executive would not be allowed to swoop in and close a church community, without due process.  My faith in the UCCAN has dropped a notch or two.

Perhaps, if the UCCAN wishes to be relevant to the wider community it might consider using some of our 35 million dollars, in Mission and Service funds, to keep Wondercafe running.

Sorry, but is the nature of software that it needs to be replaced every 3 to 5 years or seriously upgraded. Maybe that is why i am ok with it shutting down. It is what i expected

Thanks Aaron for the sensitive manner in which you posted this. The opening verse was particularily well chosen. There's certainly lots of time for us to prepare. 

Ministries need new equipment, new percolators, new lighter tables, even expensive new stuff like shingles... normally they do not just shut down rather than spend the money. If they don't have the money there are grants, etc. Again, they don't usually just lock the door.

Hmmm, this was covered as part of gc, yet, what i am reading is folks don't feel they were asked if they would wish to fund it. I thought we had threads on it but maybe I am mistaken.

I had last heard that it did not cost much and was continuing. But, I have bigger things to fight for, things like staff people's contracts ending that my congregation desperately need.

Yup

I figured it would come eventually.  I've seen busier places die down much more than this before they closed though.  The timing did surprise me.

 

Who's the admin for the FB group?  Aaron as well?  I didn't even realize it existed until today, I thought it was switched to the page.

What about a subscription system?

I don't know what to say...where to start but I have to say something.

 

I've learned so very much over the past years on the WC. Its been a real treasure grove. I have received tremendous help and support from all of the wonderful people here when my husband was sick and passed away, as well as my own bouts with illness over the past two years.

 

Praise be to the United Church for the privilege of giving us  the WC. I'm going to pay it forward in whatever small way I can. I'm not posting or reading here as much as I used to or as much as I'd like to because I'm short sighted.  I need to bend forward to see and use the puter, it bothers my abdomen after a time ( 2 surgeries).  I do try to keep up and check up on what everyone is doing and saying .... not that I'm nosey or anything.....:)...its interesting.

 

Sad....?..yes....I'm sad...whatever shall I do without my WC addiction, my fix? I do hope that something can be worked out so we don't all get scattered and lost to each other. That happened to me already in 2006 when a website I had been on for awhile closed down. It was called Angelhaven, a very supernatural New Age site. We had such great wonderful stories and fun times. It was all good, all positive.  I remember the people forever as I shall also remember the people here.

 

The WC Facebook and the  UC site are pretty wonderful I think except they are missing the personal touch. The WonderCafe  has everything one could ask for, its one in a million on the world wide net. I'll wait for news saying that it will be salvaged. God can make a way where there is no way.

 

Amen....off my soapbox...

*silent tears*

I haven't been posting much lately but I have been constantly reading. This place means so much to so many people. I can't imagine not being able to catch up with everyone.

 

I am not shocked, but I get why other people are shocked. 

 

There has always been a significant  number of chuirch people embarassed by WC, and a much larger number of people who are apathetic or indifferent or who lack undertsanding. . I remeber when it started and the gnashing of teeth.  

 

WIthout investing in adverts to attract new members, without looking at other methods of financing, the factions inside the church opposed to WC made this announcement inevitablelong ago.

 

As well Wc has an unnecessary expensive arcitecture. 

 

Membrs could provide both the finacial needs, and the technical needs of running WC. However as the announcement was done without consulting the members, it is clear that the church would be hostile to the membrs wanting to do something else even if they provided the means. Aarons hands are tied because he is an employee of the GCO and not WC.  I feel sorry for him, as he was asked to announce the decision, while as an employee he can not say what he feels.  WHich is also common inside the UCC, those who are responsible work to ensure that those who make the decision have no choices, and than get others to announce it, while others face the consequences. 

I would like to talk to the church about keeping WC community alive, except we will not be able to talk to those who do not want to. For example  we may ask who made the decision, but will be told the committiee of  those who were given no choice.  Besides if the church cared about us they would have consulted us before hand.

 

I am not surprised as this is the MO of the church going back many years.  The same dynamics also contributed to the situation  here in downtown Ottawa, where we would rather close buildings, rather than welcome  people who live in the downtown.  We have people drive in from outside the community, until they can no longer do so, and than close the church.  Meanwhile as an alternative, UCC  members in the downtown  core are told that can drive to other communities  where churches welcome them.  Howerv it is not the same as being able to go to church in your own community. as a result 5 churches in the centre of Ottawa have closed of the 16 left perhaps only 3 will not close soon.  Because Not only can you walk to church, but churches based on community means  you will than see others members during the week.  This offers the possibilty of learning to trust, and to being   open to one another.

 

 

 

duplicate

So sorry to read this........

 

One lesson life has taught me is that nothing lasts forever -and that grief has many faces.

 

There are those like me that found their way through grief at losing a partner through the support of Wondercafe and the folks that posted here.

There are those that have experienced the loss of siblings, parents, and close friends.

There are others that experience grief through the loss of their health - they too have benefitted from the support of the folks on this site.

There are those such as chansen who have found this place a sanctuary of sorts when their children have serious health concerns.

There are those who, for many reasons, live relatively isolated lives...

 

All have found a haven here......

 

There are those that have either cemented or redefined their faith (or lack thereof).

 

There are those that have posted their concerns re politics, relationship issues, global concerns, health and aging, church matters.

 

There has been humour (the Roofer, the Wondies, the double entendres.)

 

 

But whatever the forum, it's real name is called life.......

 

 

And, let's admit, that life has it's shadow  -and we have seen that  here also...

 The sockpuppets, the trolls, the bickering, the at times vindictive and bullying behaviour.

 

 

Sooo, when Wondercafe goes, so will a big slice of life go with it.

 

I  have learnt that the better way to deal with loss, is to feel gratitude for what was experienced when it was available.

Gratitude at what was given, rather than negativity for what we are to lose.......

 

 My one regret is that those who could benefit from finding hope here - as I once did - will no longer have that same opportunity.

Wondercafe helped me find my resilience - it's sad that others will not have the same opportunity available to them in the future.

 

 

 

I do believe that something rises from the dust and ashes/aches of things past but have a concern about who will be lost in that dust trail ...

Hopefully enough will be gathered together that members who valued it will assist in keeping the ends together. This includes the resources (donations, membership, whatever; I wondered about this previously) and efforts ...

 

I have learned a lot of the huge spectre of theology/deology that is out there in the past 4-5 years and suspect a lot of others have and would in a future effort ...

 

I know I would support it in any way I could ...

 

Salvation is ind' Light of knowing; how much "out there's unknown"?

 

Bi god that's a big chunk eh-b'y! The stuff people don't wish to know and sit back and claim to be authorities on the unknown god ... pricelessly unthinkable to me ...

This makes me sad.   :(

 

 

We did that in the 80's and 90's with Ecunet. It was problematic as there was no way to collect on overdues.

There is plenty of time between now and June for the people to be heard. The bottom of the page says, "brought to you by the people of The United Church of Canada". We folks, ARE the people! We are, a large number of us,  "those people". What we as a church value, what is meaningful, what is vital... is up to us. There are funds available for various forms of ministry and for what matters. It is simply not in this line of the budget. It cannot come from where it comes from now. That does not mean it cannot be. We simply do not know where else it might come from. We can give up or we can hope and work and fight. Too often, all too often, we let church happen around us and forget "we are the church". I know the power of sharing sentiments and feelings. I know it here on Wondercafe when people sent me private messages saying they "did not want to like me" or how exposure to people like me made a difference in their lives. It works in big ways too. One needs only look at 1988 and know that the church did not turn deaf ears, even if it might have wanted to or thought it did, it can't as the church of Jesus when the people, especially the marginalized people, speak from their hearts. There is an accessible/affirming angle to this in and of itself. This is accessible and affirming when many of our brick and mortar churches are not. This is viable when many brick and mortar churches meet with a handful of people and have tapped their savings. There are letters that can be handwritten and pour out the same sentiments. There can be letters sent to The Observer. This is where our faith hits the pavement. Will we be the place the Parkinson's person, the wheelchair bound,  the isolated, the TG/TS... can get to? Can come to change our minds, our hearts, our lives, our churches? Will we be the place the distraught can turn 24/7?  What might have been without this ministry? Scary to think. How much do we want to be that place and work toward it, or will we be complacent.... It is up to us. (off my soapbox now)

Agreed, look forward creatively, rather than gnash teeth and dig in heels

I just had an idea about petitioning to keep Wonder Cafe open.  But, not sure how or what shape that might take.  Perhaps users sharing their stories of what Wonder Cafe means to them and how it's changed their lives.

 

Just me trying to find creative ways of keeping Wonder Cafe alive.

 

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

 

Steven A. Breeze

I'm not sure they will.

I'm having that identical issue. I joined the facebook group, but it didn't join me! I can't post there yet.

Personally I can't imagine joining the wonder café Facebook group. I prefer the anonymity of a place like these forums. I don't twitter.

Once wondercafe closes I will be but a memory to you all.

I think Gretta Vosper is a wonderful "people person". As I watched this Easter  video today I felt she could be speaking for us as a community  on  the WC ..people connected by threads.....:)

 

part 2

Lol! Facebook blows chunks as a discussion forum. Coffee coming out my nose. Can picture you in robes saying that. Yes, I think we could have been consulted.

I'm feeling a bit frustrated by the FB group.

There was an invitation.  I was confused how open it really was, so I asked.  I got an incorrect answer, and found out after I tried.  Others clarified saying, well you can't just enter on your own, but you'll be accepted.

 

Now there's a discussion while I sit on the outside and wait to find out what the rules are to enter.

 

Do churches ever work this way?  Oh, here's an invitation.  The door will be wide open.  Well maybe not wide open, but knock and we'll open it so you can attend the service.  Then someone makes the effort to show up and they stand outside while people figure out if they need to show ID first and which forms are acceptable.

 

I get some of the concerns, but can't people at least be open about it first?  Before someone walks to the church without ID?  Creates an account to join a group?

Strings ... fabrics ... are we a patch group for missing spirits and genres ...?

 

Patch aDam comes to mind ... more rye humur on doc turin the soup we're in?

Hi chemgal,

 

 

As one of the admins for the Facebook site let me apologize for your frustration.

 

I have no idea why admission to the group is proving difficult for you.  At this point in time I am aware only of one individual being banned from that group.  Admission might lag simply because Admission needs to be approved by an Admin (we now have four) and I don't know how frequently one of the four of us is around.

 

So if there has been a delay in the admission process I apologize.

 

The discussion about admission has been raised because we have someone using an anonymous account requesting admission.  That user is going by Wonder Time.  That user will not be admitted to the group until the Admins feel comfortable admitting them.

 

Why?

 

Well, to be frank Stephenbooth has been cruising around UCCAN facebook sites trying to gain access and all Admins are being extra cautious lest he be admitted.  Stephenbooth is the only member the facebook page for WonderCafe.ca has ever banned.

 

As one of the folk stephenbooth has cyberstalked I have had to contend with multiple Facebook accounts contacting me (He has sockpuppets over on facebook as well, who would have guessed) and rightly or wrongly the account identifying itself as Wonder Time smells.

 

 

I appreciate how cold these changes feel.  I don't like them and I'm the one taking the lead on implementing them.  Why?  Well stephenbooth is just as big a problem on facebook as he was here and he is not a respector of anyone's space

 

He already knows who I am and where I minister.  Does he know where I live?  Does he know who I am married to?  Does he know who my children are?  Since he does know the answer to the first question it would take him very little time to find answers to the other questions.

 

I've personally blocked him so he cannot communicate with me through facebook.  Until he creates another sockpuppet there or uses somebody else's account.

 

He has been just as diligent in pursuing Gord and Steven.  If I can prevent him from hounding a fourth I will do whatever I can.

 

 

I don't know how many I admitted this morning.  Several.  Most without doing anything more than click the admit button.  One had no picture so I did spend time looking at that account .  I didn't get any vibes off of it.  Wonder Time did make me sit up and take notice and I have sent a message to that user.

 

For the most part I'm a pretty slack gatekeeper.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

FOrget it. John's already responded.

 

Mendalla

 

Wonder Time was me.  Sorry if that wasn't clear, I thought it was obvious when I responded after changing my name.  I am still using a pseudonym, I don't think I'm really any less anonymous.

 

I understand the need to be careful when there are people like StevenBooth out there, but I was frustrated based on what was said above.

 

Are people ok with me being on there without my real name? I would ask there, but I don't want to get booted from the FB account if it picks up certain words.