Alex, an Admin role is not required to block a troll, that can be delegated to moderator.   

The function of the tool makes it easier to block trolls than you are imagining. 
A crew of folks should not be required to be admins , nor should a crew be required to be moderators.

Mendella is currently vetting the troll and block troll function in the site we are evaluating.

Pinga and Mendalla,  thank you for all the information that you have provided. 

I direct the question of cost, as Pinga pointed out, creating a new Cafe would not be a cost-free endeavour.

As Mendalla pointed out, there are many variables and costing out (crating a realistic budget) is too soon, unless someone is willing to put the time into it.

Well, I am asking, because otherwise these spitballing efforts are an exercise in wishful thinking.

Pinga, Mandella and Chansen:  you all work in the field.  You know about hard and soft costs connected to running a secure site. 

All I am requesting is a realistic ballpark figure for the annual costs to running such a site.  And this information would be very helpful if a new Cafe project moves forward, and if seeking a grant is an option.

I am willing to work on grant applications, should this be a worthy project. 

I am guessing that people who work in the field understand the costs, and it would help all who are participating in this thread to understand hardware, software and administrative costs on an annual basis.

Volunteerism is a great way to proceed, but a volunteer's time commitment is just that, and then gaps in management of a project appear.  People will have to be employed to make this project work. 

That is what I am talking about. I am not saying just anyone should be able to act as admin, but that being admin is not something that only a few can do. My concern is with long substainability.

FRom what I can tell invisionpower meets the requirements of being low cost, easy to use,  while still being flexible.

 Redhead see

http://www.invisionpower.com/pricing

http://www.invisionpower.com/buy

What kind of employment are you expecting?  the basic forum execution is cheap, prices were already given, especially if no marketing.   Once setup , it runs.

In a hosted space, the software costs, including patches, etc, is as follows.

Users are based on avg user count over 48hrs.

25 users online at once = 240/yr

40 users online at once = 360/yr

65 users online at once = 540/yr

** 

Those costs are easily funded.

We have folks acting as moderators in a way already, they ping admin when things are going really wrong and work behind the scenes for such things as fake accounts, suicides and trolls.  Those trusted individuals could be stepped up to a moderation role.

Admin role is not much once you have set up the original space.  

***** The actual conversation regarding costs and function is around how do we exist and would the united church and or other group be willing to work with us to develop an online community presence that is affiliated with teh church but not fully run by GC.  

That conversation will drive what is the probability of us growing or slowly dying.  It will also tell us if there is an easy way to connect funding options.

It depens on if we need just a place to land to continue to exist as is and have people stumble into us, or if there is the theory of being connected to a wider community such as united & uniting.

**  grants

The grant writing may be an important part should we require funding.

*** data transfer

If the data is allowed to be transferred/imported into the forum, there will be a one time charge, I would think.  I have no idea what that would be or if it is do-able. I'm thinking it is.

** oversight

There are costs for oversight.  Those depend on the relationship with the wider church

** risk

There is a risk to having volunteers, including burnout, stability and burden. 

** personal desire

An affiliation with the united church of Canada, and or other uniting churches would be my preference.

The costs would include

a) migration (if allowed)

b) setup -- could be reduced by volunteer, but, would be preferred to engage experts from uccan as part of cutover

c) hosted site costs (see above)

d) management /administration costs -- would prefer some budget line for quarterly review with ucc resources

e) management /moderator costs -- would prefer some budget line for quarterly review and training with ucc resources

f) advertising -- ?? 

It is my belief that if a community is going to be substainable, it has to be at least self supporting. I for one am willing to provide monthly finacial support, and we should be able to find other members willing to do so as well. 

These prices are dramatically lower than what it costs to run WC now. So I would also want to see additional funds raised on top of operating costs in order to promote the community in various ways, as well as contribute to supporting other work being done in the community, or church.

How is it that a determintion can be made regarding users over a forty-eight hour period?  This seems to be a dynamic calculation and therefore a dynamic cost.

And I beg to differ with the cost of management.  At least one person has to be employed, handle pledges, and deal with the administration of the site.  Volunteers give great expertise and limited time.  If a group of very skilled volunteers donate time and expertise, there still needs to be a person who will coordinate all of that, and take care of admin and finance issues.

I tottally agree that this is what will allow WC to survive or die.   I would only add that if some members and lurkers  do not find WC of worth to fund through donations themselves or others, we are unlikely to find others to fund it for us.  This is where the information of that crazyheart has gathered around how WC has changed lifes. can be used. In an appeal for funds from ourselves and those that visit. 

The question would be if you could block people from logging in above that number and thereby contain the max cost.  Generlaly, you go for what you expect, and you work with the vendor.  All vendors that I have worked with today understand spikes.  It would be part of both the control and the setup.

Redhead, there is no way one person would be employed. 

#1.  If you have one, you need to have 2.

#2.  If you have at least 1, you are talking oversight, etc.  

Hence, this is why it is either fully volunteer, and i would suggest, funded in advance for 3 years, or.....there is some affiliation with the united church.

WHat maes you believe someone needs to be employed fultime. How much would you expect the pay to be, and how many hours would she or he be employed.

MY main concern with hiring someone, is that it would put management costs beyond the ability of the WC to provide the finacial resources required.  AS well as the ability to manage the employee. 

one of the challenges, which is the same with guilds, and other such communities, is when the leadership is also a participant.  

It is also why i would prefer to still be connected to a ucc body.

I am remembering the days of being named as part of a clique.  I get that there will be those who wish to be part of admin or moderator who the current admins/moderators would not feel should be.  having a quarterly oversight would help to address those kind of situations and put time on our side.

As I can't recall anyone being specifically named as being in the clique, I wonder what the motivation behind your comment here is. Are you admitting to something here?

Pinga,

I do not understand, 'If you have one, you need to have 2"

What I am writing about is the fact about running a site through pledges.  And a fact we all know is true:  volunteers donate time and expertise, but it is LIMITED TIME. 

Thus, employment to manage a new version of the Cafe is not unrealistic.

As far as volunteer moderators: what happens to the online community if a volunteer moderator is called away for a real life situation?  The difference is that when people are employed, they show up to work, and also have colleagues to step in if a real life crisis happens and calls that person away from the role of moderator.  Not so easy when dealing with volunteers.  And who cooridnates the volunteers?  Is that also a volunteer gig?  Not realistic to assume that this endeavour be volunteer, grass roots driven.

I am all for a new Cafe, but I think we should be very realistic about standards, expectations and the costs associated with such a project.

If an inexpesive, haphazardly moderated site is all that can be established, so be it.

If a secure site, with employed people who run systems, moderate and deal with admin issues can be established, so be it.

I leave it to those who have technological expertise, and understand the hard and soft costs of running such a site.

Alex:

In many of my posts I explained what makes me believe that at least one person needs to be employed.  Management of volunteers, administration of funding (pledges,donations,grants, online and real life bamking, etc).  A volunteer driven alternative Cafe will not survive.

At the very least one hired person will be required to coordinate everything admin, perhaps moderate, and work with volunteers.  And the salary should be the equivalent  that UCCan is paying WC Admin staff, and it should include benefits and paid vacation, etc.

Moderators already exist in this site in a volunteer manner.  What I am referring to is recognizing their abilities and stepping hem in to the role.

There is absolutely no requirement for a fulltime resource for this site.  Period.

There may be a requirement to have some resources on tap to support the site through a purchase of service for quarterly reviews/guidance or to cover as an escalation.

As someone who develops support mechanisms for global applications supporting thousands upon thousands of users, as well as itty bitty apps supporting deparments, the concept of requiring a full time resource for this site is hogwash.

You asked about, if you have 1, then you must have 2 shows the lack of concept of how you do support.  In fact, you probably require 5.  Reason: this is a 7x24 site with lots of activity on weekends and in the wee hours of the morning.  If you expect a fulltime resource with vacation to be avaialable, then you need to build in the secondary person, and you can't expect that person to be on call 7x24.  So, what you end up with with expectations and fulltime resources is multiple resources.  At minimum 2, who trade off on call, but then you have high burnout, so then you are into 3 resources, but, since we are primarily weekends, and you need to have resources then, well, I typiclaly move into a 7 person support model when I am giving 7x24 on a global app, this allows for training, turnover, etc, and i go for really low cost. as well as shared services...coz no one, other than bg apps with hundreds of users, can support that kind of cost.

To help you understand, the app that irecently deployed, we put three of us in the ey decision making/ controls, but, we have a help desk of thirty people, and a support team for the app of 7.

Redhead

I am confidant that I and other membrs can fund what Pinga is proposing. I also like that in self funded WC , unlike in a grant funded WC, we would not be scared of loosing our funding based on criteria other than members and lurkers finding the site to be of value  to them and their community.

If I knew everyear that our survival was based on a grant that we may or may not recieve, I would surely loose my faith in WC being a viable online community and that would affect my participation.

Others feel differently, and I would encourage redhead to work with others that support the idea, to look for large grants that would be available before June. People who support your idea should speak up over the next days and weeks

BUt I will still perfer Pinga's option as both doable in the short term , and substainable in the long term.

It is clear that Pinga has a vision and an understanding of how to move forward, driven by volunteers and not by employed staff.

Obviously I am mistaken.

Redhead, what I am saying is that I emphatically do not agree.  That does not mean you are mistaken or that you shouldn't try to persuade me otherwise.

Redhead asked the follwoing questions in another thread: 

And once again, funding is an issue - so what is that cost?

I believe that people discussing the creation of a new Cafe need to understand the real costs.

Thank you, Pinga, for providing some information regarding costs, but there is really no explanation (with costs) on how to manage such a site.  Volunteerism, as altruistic as it is, will not support a 24 x 7 site.

What are the costs of saoftware, of hardware?  Where is the location of maintaining a new site?  What are the overhead costs of the physical location?  Who and how does one or many pay for those costs?

The above costs cover all hosting costs, including hardware, software, patching, site costs etc.

That is what hosting means, that cost is the true costs.

Now, we can get fancy and add bells and whistles and increase the costs; however, that is the actual cost.: 

Thank yo Pinga for replying: but what are real costs?  Even ballpark figures?

How many ways do I have to ask for the software and and hardware costs and employee costs to operate a site comparable to WC?  It is crappy not to discuss funding when envisioning a new site/format.

Anyone who works in the IT world: just give ballpark figures.  I guess that I can source out  an annual salary plus benefits an vacation for at at least one person hired to manage a new Cafe - if people in the tech world think that ita can be run run by volunteers: prove it.

I have alredy given you those figures and alex has quoted them.  I will put them once more on this site, then I give up.

My guess is you are not seeing that that is the true / full cost.  You are presumign there is an additional entry cost or host site cost.  The cost is as you see it.

Reason: these guys operate on large volumes of sites all running on similair hardware.

Actually, Pinga, you presented a a user site cost.  No other costs have been presented.  And even the user cost ratio is fluid.  So, no, the other costs I have asked about have not been addressed.

Redhead, for frick's site.  There are no other costs for site, patching, software.

i give, Mendella or Alex, do you want to try to explain?

Wow.

The argument for closing WC is cost.

The argument for starting up a new Cafe is no cost to little cost.

If the cost is so little to run a site such as WC, then why is UCCan shutting it down?

And if funds are required to start up an new Cafe, then how are the funds to be managed? 

That is a very fair question.

The difference is the upgrade cost.  You will note that I did NOT include the cost for migrating the data from the existing to new.

You will also note that all the of the work you have had to date from Mendella and myself is free....and I don't know about Mendella, but, I have a reasonable bill rate even as an employee.  It is volunteer to me, I am not complaining, but there is a definite difference in cost if you go with admin/moderator volunteer with cost sharing.  

Currently you have social media resources at uccan who are doing all of the work, they are paid accountable.  Volunteer is different, then again, churches are different from corproations too.

Regarding management of funds, hence my suggestion of leveraging an existing organization such as M&S so as to be a little line item

You make a fair question. And itUnfortantely the who decided and why questions has not been really explained.  However I have in my own head put together a picture from public messages here, and on facebook, that explains things to me. I have likely gotten some things wrong, and I really think we need a more complete offical explaination coming from the ED (or secretary or whatevr they call the top staff position at GCO. 

Heres my understanding  pieced togther from various online sources, and my memory.

WC was launched as part of a bigger promotional campaign, made possible by a large endowment (ie someone died and left us a ton on money to mbe used in a specific way)  

This includied an advertising campiagn to raise genral awareness in the public.  WC was part of that.. Having a ton of money they created a highly customised site using open source software.  

The money from the endowment  ran out a few  years ago. The staff was moved into other positions or laid off.  In addition many other staff positions were eliminate (1/3?????) that were seperate from the endowment, and thus staff are doing more work with less people.  Certain staff members of GCO wanted to keep WC alive, and were told by GCE  that they could if they could manage it along with their other work.  It is costing thousands of dollars in annual operating costs and tens of thousands in annual staffing costs???

Now howevr the version of the open source software that is being used is no longer going to be updated. This would require  recreating WC from a current  version of this open source software, which would cost at least 20,000,

GCO neither has the funds in the current budget to do this, nor do the staff have the time

Thus by switching to Pinga's commercial software solution,  and having membrs take responsibility for a greater share she hopes to work out a solution where the ammont of costs in both staffing and money is one that GCO can support. Otherwaise I am  saying (which she may or may not support) that WC can be run on it's own, or in affilaition with another UCC body. like a court or a congrgation, or something like Affirm, or something attached to our global network of uniting churches or..?????

I have noted everything you have posted, Pinga, and what you have just posted supports the idea that someone, at least one persone will need to be employed.

In fact, in prvious threads and under different circumstances, you have explained that you enter into  a situation, do what you can within time constraints and then move on.  And that is fair enough, but it does prove my point;  a new Cafe cannot be volunteer driven:  and so staff costs must be considered, if a new Cafe wants to operated in a similar way to the existing WC.

I am curious, If this new software being discussed is less expensive than the current Drupal 6 and the cost of upgrading to Drupal 7.

Would it not be of interest to the current WC providers to look into the costs of using this new found prg on the existing WC servers as a viable and cheaper financial solution to closing Wonder Cafe?

My concern is still the safety and security of user personal information. I don't know how well that is done on this hosting service for the program being discussed.  How trust worthy are these providers.  If this program discussed is as comperable to the current WC format and would cost perhaps 2-5k (Guesstimating) to replace the current software, Instead of 10-20K, is this not worth Wonder Cafe's current provider worth looking into?

I also realize that people are currently still in the infancy stage of fleshing out this possible new replacement for Wonder Cafe, So people may not have all the financial figures at their finger tips. Also it is a valid question to ask How, and who will handle any and all monetary matters as it relates to this new Hosting. Being responsible to make sure the payments are done and in on time, and to manage financial matters that may arise that are not currently known.

Please understand, I am not saying this is not doable, if people don't question now, these thoughts and concerns, they can't be properly addressed in the future.

Is there some way, forum, that this new software can be presented to the current Wonder Cafe to see if it can be implemented on the existing servers, and if so be given a financial outline to those costs and see if we can work in partnership with Wonder Cafe to address the costs in some way?

I may not have explained things as well as I want to. Sometimes things seem to sound right in my head but my fingers and crappy keyboard, don't always agree.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

umm, no, one person does NOT need to be employed.  Again, when ou get into one person, you are now into multiple. 

What you could do is a purchase of service, which is an agreement to use existing corporate structures, such as at the united churhc of Canada to manage certain items. The amount of service purchased could be set by the board.

It maybe. But it would depend on someone with the know how expalin how it would work, in the new context. 

In a way we are crowd sourcing investigating  solutions. Thus anyone can make a suggestion, but it will only get acted upon if they can get an individual to look into it, or if they do it themselves.  

Thus Redheads idea of staffing is good or not good, only if thshe also comes up with a way to fund it.  

You can get someone to look into Dupal, or you can download it wyourself and play with it.  Drupal was the first thing I look at and it is beyond me at this moment. Howevr I have a friend who is experienced with it, and if he is coming to Ottawa on his vactation soon. I will look at it with him.  Howevr at this time, I am happy with Pinga software and am lossing all interest in Drupal. SO it will likely need to be someone else to look at it.

Wondercafe is already on a hosted site ie servers that the united church of canada does not manage.  Some is managing the  software, and someone is managing the virtual machine /  The existing hosts are definitley not united church of canada. I would be surprised if the vm's or even the apps are managed by UC stuff.

UC staff does manage the purchase of service andthe admin and moderation of the site currently (guessing based on who calls who when there is an issue)

Absolutley....it can be done in various ways

I would say it's security feature are equilivant to Drupal, And in practice actually better as it is simpler, thus IMHO less prone to User error, thus more secure.

Here is a mock up Pinga has made and posted last night.

In addition her is a lin where you can investgate the software and it's features. It would help as you have an eye for things that others miss and could also answer wqquestions that others have but who do not have the time to investigate.

http://www.invisionpower.com/

Thanks Alex, I was trying to say in my post that if this program being looked at is more cost efficient than drupal, then perhaps WC should take a serious look at it as an affordable replacement to the current software.

Thanks for the links, I will check them out.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

I've had a brief chance to look over the Invision main site and these things passed through my mind while browsing it.

*Many people on Wonder Cafe tend to edit their posts several times fixing typo's and error's fleshing out sentences that at first typing seemed to make coherent sense but when carefully read once posted say, ugh, need to better explain that or I lost a word or sentence when typing my thoughts quickly. - would the new system consider that Spamming? and automatically block or ban a legitimate user?

*The software can be hosted on their provided servers or servers not connected to their site. Which means it can be hosted on the existing Wonder Cafe Servers.

*Content Notification - It speaks about sharing notifications throughout the community, is this community limited to our created site only? or to the IP community at large making what we share available to everyone beyond our control?

*User customisation - Individuals are able to control what is put in their profile or not put in if they so choose. Gives more of a secure feeling perhaps to people concerned with what people are able to see in their profiles.

*Would need a clear understanding how people outside the community are able to locate our site via external search engines. and if so, what they will be able to see once they get to the site if they are not registered as a member.

*Reliable email with Mandrill - Is this the same feature for email, as is currently on WC? who has access to those emails. are copies of personal mail sent this way stored without our knowledge somewhere?

*Hooks - are the hooks they talk about free? is there a cost for using them? Do the Hooks if used affect the cost of the software?

*Skins - are they free? paid? If I understand correctly there are some free and others with a cost. Does the cost aspect relate to using their create your own skin feature, or is it free?

*License - self-hosted will require a license to use the software if not run on their servers.

*What are the requirements for the self-hosted software?

Self-hosting our software requires a server with these minimum capabilities:

    PHP 5.2.0+
        GD2 Extension
        SPL Extension
        DOM XML Extension
        Recommended: JSON Extension
    MySQL 4.1+ (MySQL 5+ is recommended)

Our software works with any web server (Apache, IIS, lighttpd, etc.) that can support the listed requirements. Please note that if you choose to use Windows/IIS hosting our technical support services may be limited.

The self-hosted version of IP.Nexus requires that either Zend Optimizer or IonCube Encoder be installed on the server.

*Privacy - Terms of Service - I recommend a careful reading of the links provided

http://www.invisionpower.com/legal/hosting

http://www.invisionpower.com/legal/privacy

(Beyond that, I've also signed onto the Forum site pinga set up.  It's funcionality is simple streamlined and after a few uses because quite easy to navigate and change from one forum to another by slimply clicking the option either at the top or bottom of the current forum. - I do wonder if those branches can be enlarged to make it easier for people to identify them as how to change from forum to forum).  I tried all I could on the site, it lists me as a Newbie, I don't know if that is because I'm new and haven't been fully approved, or because I haven't posted a hundered msgs as yet.)

There you have my first initial thoughts on the proposed alternative.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

I took myself off to do other things and came back to lots of conversation!. 

Hopefully I managed to follow the way peoples' thoughts are going    One of the things I did was to chat online with a computer crazy young relative.  He suggested that this might work for a future WC. 

http://www.proboards.com

A quick look (I know next to nothing about computers!) seemed to show many of the features that we now have.  It is pretty much free, or so it seems.

Ideally I would like to remain connected to the UC and maybe linked to similar denominations in the UK,  Australia etc.  The UC is already providing a 'space' on the 'net for us - could that be continued affordably by them?  I don't know what costs are involved in a domain name (if that is what it is called).  It looks like alternate forums include 'moviing things over' - wouldn't that be a cool bonus if it will work that way. 

I realyy appreciate the way WC participants have got busy thinking of ways to continue.  I am hopeful that something will get worked out before the UC pull the plug!

Here is my contribution to moving things around, a list of potential names for the new place (not meant to be exhaustive)...

WonderCafeteria

WonderDiner

WonderRestaurant

WonderFoodTruck

WonderGreasySpoon

WonderBar

WonderDive

WonderFoodCourt

WonderMuffinShop

WonderFastFoodJoint

WonderTruckStop

WonderBistro

WonderDonutShop

WonderHotdogCart

WonderSaloon

I have a question for aaron or any other admin  -What does the United Church of Canada have to say regarding all of the changes posters are talking about?

Crazyheart

I'm sure the UC must have exhausted all efforts to get funding for the WC. Perhaps you could contact " Edge" on their site? There's no harm in asking.

Crazyheart, to get that answer , i think you would have to send an email to one of them asking them for their input and summarizing or sending links

Note; rather than changes, I think you would say "proposals". 

No one has authority to make a change.

There are also some people who are absent from these threads.  they could be busy, or they could be workng things behind the scenes contacting church organization. 

i would be interested in reading about other thoughts and ideas or actions ongoing.

Different people work at different speeds. It's only been a week since the announcement. I imagine people are considering other options as well, like those suggested by admin, or appealing to GCE to keep WC the way it is. Perhaps becasue you (Pinga) like I were  not surprised at the announcement, that we have already given consideration and thought to what would or could happen next, and thus it is easier for us to go there sooner.

Agreed, Alex.

It also can be just how we roll.

Pinga

I was looking at where the fat could be trimmed from the bacon on a potential revised edition of the WC. I happened to look at the " members list"  because I recalled Aaron saying something to the effect that many of the members weren't real? Its a guess on Aaron's behalf? Perhaps he'll come along and give us more info...?

I quickly checked out or scanned the first 5 pages. I discovered that approx. 40 new members have joined the WC in the last few weeks. The trend seemed to continue on beyond page 5. I'm curious. What is this all about?  Why in the last few weeks? Is this a scam of some sort, a prank being played on the UC? They come from Canada, the U.S., and other countries.

Common new members appear to be age 60 or so, also age 18 or under, some listed as church admin. or admin.  Ministers are also listed without info., one seems valid. I did notice "no gender" or "trans" in some  profiles. Should these people be sincere it is hoped they will find a home and a warm  welcome at the WC.

I didn't count  how many members there are in total on these    pages. I assume a  new forum  would consider GB memory required .....???.or bandwidth  required or used...??..to calculate the cost of running a forum? I have 8GB on my personal puter and I've bought 2 memory sticks on top  since 2004.

Pictures require a lot of memory, they would not need to be shown on the member's list, I mean its not necessary. I'm not sure a smaller forum should accommodate a large number of members who  do not participate, meaning they don't post. The problem is that there's no way to presume or to test who is sincere or not sincere in joining a forum. Possibly the profiles with pics. do not involve a lot of expense?

Just some info. I'm wondering about and wondering if anyone has answers to the riddle of so many new members at the present time ?

Maybe the sudden increase in new members is caused by the announcement that the WC is being closed down? 

Maybe all those UC people who never bothered to check out WC started panicking - "If I'm going to know what is was about I'd better go there and see what is is like?".

I'm still disgusted by the mean spirited, authoritarian way the Head Honchos have chosen to deal with this.

several paragraphs of venting deleted

Hi kaythecurler,

I don't know.  Has anybody seen the announcement anywhere in The United Church of Canada universe other than here and the facebook pages?

I haven't.

If all the hoopla around the launch didn't interest them the whimper won't.

I empathize.

Grace and peace to you.

John

 Hi kaythecurler

If I remember  correctly the new  members  had mostly  joined prior to the news of the closing. You can click on "Member List" up top and see for yourself, it only takes a few minutes. You don't need to read their whole profiles.

I was thinking  some of the new  members  "no gender or trans" profiles may  be real and in response to RitaTG's communication on the WC (parental topic was it  ..?) . If so the UC would be doing a wonderful service in continuing to provide a home for these members, a place where they feel welcome and loved.

Often those are spammers or fake accounts, such as by StephenBooth.

ps, there is no cost to those and memory is cheap.