It would be interesting to do a tracert to see how many logged IPs come from Ottawa.

yup

I suspect most of them are robots out to sell things, or plant links to fool google search engine into putting them in a higher placement. or to collect information to con people. or.....  I suspect this is why a highly customised site is so difficult to maintain.  WC has captcha as security on some of it's log in / sign up pages. but it has many customised pages where there is no such security.  

A standardises system as the one PIng has model would be simpler, thus IMO more secure.
 

No charge...?....O.K. but how did so many spammers get access?  It does look as if one party ( SB..?)  invented a lot of the very similiar  user names as you check further along...in the 20's page number  range. I know its impossible to track IP numbers properly. We've had these discussions before. Witch is very well informed on the topic I recall.

When I moderated a small forum I could see everyone's IP numbers. I always  use only the one computer, my own, and yet I myself  had 5 or more IP numbers I could see. Witch said something about them being in groups and the most easily traced is by using Mac.

Oh well... off topic...lets not go there...sorry.

Hi All,

Please find below the text of my letter sent to Mr. Dan Benson, Head of Communications at the General Council Offices.

I expect that at most I will get an e-mail saying thanks for the correspondence.  I do not expect one letter to change the decision.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Well, you've convinced me, at least.

Well, truthfully, I'd still prefer to see the link between the UCCan and WC be removed and have the community run it. I'd just hate to lose the content.

Sincerely, Rev John,

Your letter is profound. 

And I appreciate the logical defense presented therein.

I am sad to say that I do not think your letter will change the fate of WC, but thank you for trying.

Thank you John. You have been steady and true to WonderCafe.ca over the years, You have answered questions ( that obviously for some of us weren't being answered in our congregations). And I do thank you. I know that we tell people that the United Church is the grass roots - from the bottom up but when it comes to decisions it is really from the top down.     Very disallusioning.

Rev. John

Fantastic letter........you're the best. You've put your heart , soul, and lots of your  valuable  time  into ministry on this site. I hope the powers that be will "listen up" and appreciate your service here on the WC and your opinions about the UC  dismissing our internet  community so lightly.

 P.S. I prefer sending  snail mail  for such a matter as this. I feel it may not hit the trash, delete, or get lost  quite so fast.

@Redhead

Lots of us are going to write letters to Mr. Dan  Benson. There is a strong possibility he may have second thoughts if we can conjure up something half as good as Rev. John's letter.  We need a variety of fresh interesting facts about what the WC means to us and why it should continue.

Hi redhead,

Mine alone certainly won't.

Other letters making it plain what losing WonderCafe.ca means might.

As disturbing as the notification to close is it is still better than trying to log in only to find that the shop is closed and will never re-open.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi crazyheart,

The Church is never either one or the other.  In reality it is quite a bit of both.  That said, one appears to have more authority to trump the other.

If those responsible for this decision came to understand that it was a horrible one that they did not think through fully the decsion could change.

June of 2014 is an arbitrary date.  Why not close up December 31, 2013 and make the accounting easier?  Maybe, just maybe, the advanced notice is given to see if this particular ministry would be fought for?

I don't know that such is the case obviously.

I also do not know that it isn't.

Better to try and fail than to give up and never have a chance to succeed. right?

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi chansen,

You sir do not understand precisely how valuable your position here is.

By virtue of your atheism (no matter that it is unwavering) represent precisely the target we were looking for when we started this whole campaign.

You simply by sharing what you find best about WonderCafe.ca from your position as an atheist will mean more to the national Church than my thoughts as Clergy.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I'd like to see it continue, true. I don't especially want to see it continue in the UCCan's hands. I think their administration of WC.ca has been atrocious. I'd like to see it migrated to a simple forum platform, and be run by anyone but the UCCan.

I think that letter writing will, at best, delay the inevitable. I don't think there is any political will within the UCCan to operate an online community. And even if we find some, it could disappear tomorrow. I think the will to continue exists primarily among ourselves.

Hi stardust,

I hope not.  

Last I heard I was the third worst Minister in The United Church of Canada.

It is better for the denomination that I remain closer to the bottom.

At any rate.

I'm visible here.  I gather I have an entertaining file.  The former Conference Secretary chuckled about it while refusing to divulge contents.  That could mean that there is entertaining material containe within that is not at all damaging of it could mean that he was something of a sadist and wanted to see if I'd sweat.

I suspect I am virtually invisible outside of Hamilton Conference so don't hope that the pile of wondie awards I have amassed impresses anybody outside of here.

I have had many adventures with Canada post.  So many that I am loathe to trust them with anything remotely valuable.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Rev. John

Yikes....I'm at a loss for words.........stumped...

Hi stardust,

Not to worry.  I'm reasonably confident that my ranking was in jest and not meant to actually place me higher or lower than any colleague.  I simply ran with it for the laughs at the time.

That time was another forum now defunct that I shared with some who found their way here.  In fact, most of us found our way here, from there.

So it is a bit of an inside joke.  Sorry for that.

As for the rest.  It is a simple fact that what some think of me here probably does not translate to what others will think of me there.

I will be one voice among several and I will get no extra weight for my office or my time spent here.

Which is as it should be actually.

Grace and peace to you.

John

All Rightie Rev. John....no problem.

Hi, Sorry I've been busy with some other things (Philippines emergency and Comp Review stuff mostly), but I've quickly read the last two pages of posts. RevJohn, thank you for your letter. Yes, your letters could make a difference. I'm not in a position to advocate a letter writing campaign, but just saying, that's the way it works. The more letters, the more attention paid to an issue.

2nd: There's been no more new users applying to WonderCafe than anytime in the past. Basically none of these folks make it into WonderCafe with posting privileges. We screen them out based on the information they give - for example if they say they are from "Alberta, Australia" and give a bogus postal code and have an IP that is from Russia or some other country, we don't let them in. "Trans" is the default gender option, so we get a disproportionate number of that option. We have always gotten a ton of spammers trying to apply, so we've developed overly secure screening. 

3rd: The decision to close WonderCafe is based on the upgrade costs mostly. Not the day-to-day running of the site. Day-to-day costs aren't a lot, but they do add up. It's the bigger cost of upgrading to Drupal 7 that is really the challenge here. It's a little harder to come up with exact numbers on how much it costs to run WonderCafe, especially how that compares with some of the alternatives being floated.

4th: We're not opposed in theory to a volunteer run alternative, but just need to look into it - especially the privacy issues such as folks giving us their emails and real i.d.s in confidence. That's something we have to protect in my opinion. I am passing your threads on and they are being heard.

If you have other questions, please post them here. I may not be able to get to them right away, but I hope to. If not, please send me a WonderMail. 

Thanks!

Aaron

...5th: If Chansen is converted, the mission of the site is complete and it will close for sure.

JOKING!

I appreciate you taking time to communicate with us Aaron - you seem to be in a somewhat difficult spot.

Today I started to wonder - "What drove the original decision to use Drupal for WC, ( a costly system,)  instead of one of the free or economical systems?  From the discussions here it seems a free or cheap system would be about as good.  Had this been done at the start it would have freed up money for other initiatives.

After I'm dead, I'm sure the mormons will convert me by proxy. You can stop the servers then.

Hi Kaythecurler, I have been posting here and on some other threads, as well as on the Facebook threads on the topic. Sorry if it seems like I haven't been replying.

Drupal is a free, open source software and was selected because of it's cost-effectiveness and flexibility. It is also robust enough to handle the large numbers of users here and the mass audience we hoped to connect with. We did build several custom features that would be difficult or impossible to adapt to Drupal 7 (such as WonderMail and the Church Search). The custom features represent the greatest cost to upgrading.

Thanks,
Aaron

Drupal is and has been a good CMS for a long time. If you set out to build a web presense like WC, rather than create a site from the ground up, you can start with a basic Drupal site, and then you customize. Once you customize so much, you can't do a simple upgrade any more. You pretty much have to start from scratch with, say, Drupal 7. A rather stock Drupal 6 site can be upgraded much more easily.

Aaron, do you know if Mr. Benson recieved my e-mail?  I haven't recieved anything saying he has at least got it or read it.  It would be great to know if he has gotten it and at least read it if nothing else.  My e-mail program sents a request of reciept when an e-mail I sent has been recieved,  I haven't gotten one.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

Steven A. Breeze

I don't know, but I will check.

Thanks,

Aaron

Here is one thing that worries me . . .  if we continue this on-line community in some other fashion, won't we become just an exclusive club? A club of folks who used to belong to wondercafe.ca? 

Unless there is advertising to bring in new members, I don't see any point to continuing.

Ironic that even as we are hearing this sad news that wondercafe will be no more, there is an advertisement for the site in the latest Observer. 

Sigh. Sigh. Sigh. 

P3, in this modern age marketting is everything. Ah, whats a mother to do?

I agree. We need to develop a marketing plan.  If we lower costs to 10 to 50 a month for the site, we can than divert our resources into marketing. I am sure the members can come up with interesting proposals, that would generate free press.

IMHO if we fill the need of a niche market on the net, we can than also target ads towards the types of people who would find wondercafe of value.  I do beleiev that WC tried that at first, but after 7 years we can likely target lower cost net ads that are better at targeting an audence that would find WC of value.

I've joined forums because I've stumbled upon them after a google search.

Thanks for correcting my understanding of Drupal.  I'm grateful that there are people who 'get' computers - I just use them.  Oh wait - I also ask questions!

I'm not able to access pinga's new WC since some hours. Anyone else have problems? Maybe she's working on it? Its 10:24 p.m. Tues. in  Ont.

Thanks for the info. Aaron.

Chansen is a closet Christian....I'm running...............................................................................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

@paradox 3

I'm not sure about the process but small forums I've been on made themselves available in google to get new blood. They weren't always very successful They got spammers.

Google search engine is on the WC tracking every thread, automatic or requested?

Hey folks, not sure what is up with the demo site. It should be good for 5 days. It started having issues last night.  It could be that we overrode some max limit for demo site, or that dang troller guy broke it.  I have dropped a line to support , will advise.

From a strictly religious perspective, why would they continue to fund the free exchange of ideas about Christianity on the Internet? The Internet is where religions go to die.

Don't believe me? What other denomination provides an area for free comment on matters of faith online, where arguments against religion are not simply deleted? Does anybody know? Seriously - what other Canadian denomination has done something like Wondercafe, where someone like myself wouldn't be banned immediately?

This place is great. I appreciate it immensely that it exists, but it's really not in the best interests of the UCCan to run this place.

A group of Internet friends/ acquaintances. Not opposed to letting new people join in- for sure! But I don't know why we have to 'recruit' people? If we just meet to chat about stuff that we have been meeting to chat about. The big missing piece for some might be "Church Life" though. I don't know if I should br advocating to keep things as is (if that's just going to drag out the inevidable) or let go and get my head around new proposals. In limbo still....One way or another I would like to stay in touch and keep chatting. That's a given.

Chansen, it is actually in the best interests of the United Church of Canada.

Reason: the church community that I valued the most encouraged the exchange of ideas, looked at social justice, cared for the other and listed to the stories of folks.....amongst other items

It is a church withint he United Church of Canada with ministers called to it.

So, absolutely that Is what makes the United Church of Canada the most logical to do this type of cafe, and why the cafe has hit home for many of us.

Contrary to being a place to die, it has been aplace where I found others who could express their faith and understanding of the bible in the same way that I do.

It has brought me closer to my denomination, not further away.

But, overall, it's not something that brings people closer to faith faster than it pushes them away. If that wasn't the case, why wouldn't more churches do this?

I believe one of the most powerful comments made is the fact that this site has answered questions from the ground up and decisions are top down ... a great illustration in the interweaving of two triangles in the Hebrew Star ...

The ground of being as star dust and not the corrupt powers of earth/mankind; Hebrew myth in icons vs the juda'n sense of power. One must know a wee bit and variety of classic tongues. To go there makes one a bit of an odd sort to those that just accept things as they are. Doesn't do to tell the powers of lower needs ... unless you can address their unconscious side ... sort of poke it a bit ... like Chansen has and perhaps learning something in the process of the gentile and humble powers of an unseen light did you ever examine the spectrum from 10 to the zero up to 10 to the 23 ... as far as we can go at present? What is visible energy is only a slight sliver ... a line in the dark as metaphor ... now if this line is warped; will it come back onitself as a reflection of everything ... omega'd ... that's jar'd ... perhaps jar'n or just a thread out of the contain Eire ... almost oppressive; but nothings perfect!

Can "nothing's perfect" be taken another way; like an indelible point? Unseen metaphor! How long does it take to sink in? Now that's enigma at IT's best, but then word is a queer idealism ... is it not, or is that how it isn't with those not a literary as they could be if they didn't fear such an odd and abstract god ... in the darkest of drama ... filmé-no-ire ... cede-ire of le Ba-non ... in essence nothing tuit as "O" that's omicrone ...

I did say the soul couldn't understand nothing without an encompassing and embellishing story to cover up for the lies ... things we're fed by powers who follow the old patriarchs: "The common people shouldn't know!" Thus the higher ups fail do to intelligent support ... a subtle means to ends in an infinite spectre ... star burst?

Personally, I agree with Pinga. I have always thought WonderCafe is an incredible witness for the United Church denomination. But I also know United Church people and some colleagues who believe what Chansen says above...."how does the denomination benefit from an open online discussion forum?"

Before I'm misinterpreted, let me say again that this site has been great. As a recruitment tool, however, it's probably failed. How many UCCan parents would want their teens browsing the forums? If WC.ca has been a successful recruitment tool, why would it be closed? If people were coming to the UCCan over this place, the case to upgrade would be easy to make.

My position is that it is not bringing people into the pews, and, if anything, is hastening the decline. I understand that a handful of people like it, and consider it essential ministry. But the UCCan point is that alternatives exist through Facebook. While true, we know FB sucks for conversation, but if you're the UCCan, how do you justify funnelling money away from other programs and into WC so we can have anonymous threaded conversations?

We've been expecting this announcement for years. Everyone has had these reasons in the backs of their heads. It sucks, and I hope WC.ca continues. I don't expect it will run by the UCCan, but I could be wrong. To see it continue, I'm willing to make a contribution, if it comes to that.

Right, and to be clear, that perspective is just attacking it purely from a numbers and results perspective. There is a social aspect of connecting people within and outside the UCCan which WC is very good for. There are social reasons to keep WC.ca afloat, but what we lack is a good "business case".

I agree that this is not a forum that will necessarily bring people into the pews. In fact the idea of focusing on bringing people into the pews is really bothering me lately. Are we only interested in bums in the seats? On some level, probably yes because that also brings in revenue which keeps the organization afloat. This form of ministry does not bring in extra revenue. Perhaps that is a reason why it is so easy to slash it. I think WC is a ministry of its own that may or may not bring people to bricks and mortar UCCans or events. As Pinga said above, it can express the values of the UCCan of supporting journeys of faith, encouraging critical thinking, supporting each other, and social justice. Are we interested in developing these values or worshipping the organization?

Amen Northwind - I too am bothered by the "must get people into the pews" thinking that is quite prevalent.  Is "ministry" only to "benefit the denomination" (as Aaron refers to in comments above).  If so, it's a very narrow view ... and one of a church in decline, IMO.  Have we lost a sense of mission?   Has this been replaced by efforts focused on maintenance instead?  

This is a site for people that ask dangerous questions to those that prefer to set in comfortable pews ...

I go to church not for the masses there but for that rare 10% that are on a quest like I am; "like, what dah elle are these so-called power-hungry Christians going on about?" They appear in bulk to hate as well as any brute.

Then psychologist/psychiatrist do state that it is dangerous for non-reinforced minds to peer  into the dissonent soul of man led blindly by ignorant moral masses.

You don't understand? Perhaps that's best for me and what've learned of here. Sacredness, and mystique are not far afield of apostacy of making a mortal man ... god ... when this is improbable and almost impossible given the evil immersion we get here in reality. Is there something abstractly distant from the absolute god? I hope for such things ... and to protect them maybe imaginary is a good word!

Possibly a gross way to connect and communicate the unseen portions of the indelible psyche ... neigh ineffable amongst pysical powers that believe not in metaphysical things like compassion and m'ello'd thoughts encounterd as wee whines in the night, or owls of whis*pers*on's ... covered fue Zies in the rigging ... sheets?

Like Chasen; I'd be more willing to support a non-place like this than a hard structured church ... constructed mostly of hard-heads & stoics!

@ Aaron - does the main UCC website use Drupal? (I think I recall hearing that it does)

If so, I assume it will also soon require the upgrade?  Any plans in place to reduce those costs or change the CMS system used there?  Curious to know how the corporate body views that site in relation to WonderCafe, in terms of cost containment etc. 

Yes, it has been a wonderful witness for our denomination and our faith story (as much as we disagree with each other and struggle with the story.)

It has been an amazing ministry for me, personally, and I am thinking about what to say in the letter I will write to the individual suggested by Aaron.

Chansen, 

As the UCCan parent of two young adults (admittedly not teenagers any longer), nothing would please me more!!!

I know of several people who spent time on WC and decided to go to their local UC.  Epic fail - the congregation weren't 'ready' for some questioning younger people (younger than their average member - 65ish). Some congregations knew nothing about the Emerging Spirit initiative, or the WC.  The ministers may have been aware though or even a few people in the pews. 

Ministry shouldn't have a focus of benefitting the denomination.  Supporting Mission and Service doesn't provide advantages to the denomination (other than the valuable sense of contributing to something important as part of a larger group).  Donating to Red Cross can do that too, so can volunteering at a school sponsored Breakfast Program.

For whoever....

Here's a quote I saved. I've no idea where it came from or who wrote it ...?...perhaps it was on Facebook?

copy/paste:

We had two young women show up one Sunday who had been on the Cafe. Sad to say, I wasn't in attendance that week . . . I would have loved to speak to them.